#102 A Second Sage? Mengzi vs. Xunzi

Mengzi's Three Moves. Anonymous drawing, China, 20th century. Photo by AKG Images

Review Confucius

Last class we delved into Confucius from the perspective of equality. We found evidence from both sides:

• That Confucius placed a high value the ability of education to transform individuals and that he preached what some have called the “Silver Rule” (not to do to others what you would not have done to you).
• At the same time, and probably more significantly, he presented a hierarchical framework governing virtually every relationship (including of husband and wife and friend-to-friend), and that his context meant that while education could mean unlimited potential for all, in practice it applied to a fairly small slice of the population—indeed, he was mainly addressing (male) aristocrats or shi 士.

With the following list of cards from last class in mind, are there other topics that you think we ought to pause on before we move on? Here were the cards:

• Acting humanely, committing to self-improvement, adhering to ceremony, respecting one’s elders, drawing lessons from the past, knowing one’s place in a hierarchy, challenging convention, appreciating literary heritage, demonstrating martial valor, cultivating relationships, engaging in public service, pursuing gentlemanly virtues, transmitting ancient values, adhering to the Golden Rule, following the law, finding one’s spiritual self, preparing for the afterlife, grafting military strategy, embracing equality, instilling fear in one’s subordinates, getting rich, innovating new technologies

Mengzi vs. Xunzi

Mengzi

• Foundation for how most people understand Confucianism today
• Born two generations after Confucius
• Brought up by single, dedicated mother; important early portrayal of celebrated woman in China
• Followed similar path as Confucius, working to transform chaotic age into one guided by “humane governance”

Xunzi

• Late in the Warring States period
• Critical of existing interpretations of Confucianism, including Mengzi
• Open to range of ideas, including Daoism
• Remembered (probably incorrectly) as teacher of Han Feizi, an influence on Legalism and the Qin dynasty

Start by asking for basic clarifications on the text

Divide into two groups

• Each half of the room will prepare as disciples of Mengzi or Xunzi for a discussion on human nature.
• The goal will be to engage the other side in a spirited conversation—the goal is not necessarily to “defeat” the other side but to use a two-camp model to clarify, expand, and critique the views of each philosopher
• To start:
  • Mengzi group: Explain the thought experiment of the child at the well. What point do you take Mengzi to be arguing for? Likewise, explain the story of Ox Mountain. What claim do you take Mengzi to be illustrating with this metaphor?
  • Xunzi group: Xunzi compares the actions of the sages to those of craftspeople. How does this comparison suggest that there can be a “right” Way even though it is not part of human nature?
  • Both groups: What is the difference between Xunzi’s definition of human nature and that assumed by Mengzi? Why might this difference lead us to think that Xunzi and Mengzi do not really disagree? Why might we still think that they do disagree?